edit: I can’t believe I missed this post on the same subject. Lyraat used raid parses, which are more subject to RNG than simulationcraft’s batches of thousands of simulated fights, however it uses the actual game engine.
Well, apparently I’ve been doing it wrong since patch 3.1 or something. The common knowledge of how to handle explosive shots during a lock and load is outdated.
Always wrong method: fire explosive shots so fast that the last tick is overwritten.
Old, and now wrong method: fire three explosives in a row, taking care to wait exactly 2 seconds between them so you don’t clip the DoT.
Right method: weave anything but a steady shot between your explosive shots.
In conclusion, we found that the long accepted best-practice of delaying shots under Lock and Load no longer maximizes DPS. Instead, the common simplification of only delaying for Steady Shots is closer to optimal. The difference between both tactics is small in practice.
This was tested by Pherra (same dude who’s writing the hunter DPS addon) in response to a question I asked over at epicadvice.
Euripides
jurgwena
lemli
eidotrope
pherra
femaledwarf
But…I always thought weaving in shots was the correct way…
On top of that, what is one supposed to do when Black Arrow is on CD, Serpent Sting is already up on the target (refreshing serpent sting is from what I’ve been told bad with 2pT9 bonus), and Aimed Shot/Multi-Shot are on CD? Do we simply not shoot and wait for Explosive Shot ticks to come off before firing another shot? I was always able to get a Steady Shot off right as the tick went off the target and I could apply my next Explosive Shot. Maybe I could drop it and see what happens, although I’m playing mostly MM now.
I always thought that not weaving was the right way, based on theorycrafting from EJ after patch 3.0.8. I’m not alone either :)
Either way, weaving is now the best answer.
I think it’s worth noting that the delay still applies when you are moving (i.e. steady shot is not availible). If serpent is up, and black arrow and multi/aimed are on CD you will still want to avoid clipping.
Is there a beta version of the addon available? I would definitely like to check it out if possible. Can’t seem to find the original article you posted to see if there is a download link though.
Sorry, not even an alpha yet. I’ll post here when we’re ready for testers
Is this something that could/should be macroed? A castsequence of some sort perhaps? If we arent using Steady Shot, doesnt that pretty much leave us with Aimed or Multi, and reapply Serpent Sting?
No, for the same reason we can’t macro anything else- it’s a priority list, not a sequence.
Hmm… the aimed shot result is particularly interesting. Do we know if this test was done assuming that Sniper Training was active?
Also, I notice that this was done with the 2-piece tier 9 set bonus, which SV hunters will eventually want to get rid of. I’d be curious to see what their serpent results are with silumationcraft without the t9 set bonus.
I was specced into 3/3 Sniper Training, but I don’t see any mention of it in the simulationcraft output. I’ll have to check whether it is implemented in simulationcraft.
Euripides and I have been talking about writing a series testing different rotations at different gear levels and skill levels. Different set bonuses would definitely play into that – I was planning to grab my gear and that of a few friendly bloggers and see if we are supposed to be working on the same rotation. Simulationcraft has a skill option ranging from Elite to “Ouch! Fire is hot!” which I would use for testing rotations by skill level.
I just took a quick look at the source. Simulationcraft does not model movement for sniper training at all – if you have the talent specced, you just get a flat bonus. So sniper training was assumed to have 100% uptime.
I’ve always weaved shots because it is really the only foolproof way to prevent clipping the last tic, which is so easy to do when you are poised over the key. It also just seems to make SENSE, and sometimes you have to ignore the freaking math and go with your gut.
I am frankly relieved.
I practically could not stop myself from weaving an Aimed/Black/Sting if they were off CD/needed refreshing. It just did not make sense to me not to even though I had read on EJ, here and other huter sites not to. Now I can keep doing so without guilt ;-)
man, this is pretty exciting news. i rarely clipped explosive (altho I have been known to do it ><) in pve, but I sometimes get lazy and fire it off too late, which similarly costs me dps. i'm pretty much ecstatic right now
I’m excited about this new addon for dps diagnostic.
Sadly the class I am min/maxing dps at the moment is a mage. Would be fun if the project could be extended to most dps classes.
We’re just working on hunters for now, but it will be open source if anyone wants to write a mage module. The only somewhat high level mage I have access to now belongs to my wife, and I am not installing the addon anywhere close to her computer :)
I’ve read all sorts of theories on how to handle Lock and Load procs. I have yet to find one that mentions, if there are two targets you’re allowed to DPS, go nuts and fire the Explosive Shots back to back switching between targets!
If you have multiple targets, fire-switch-fire-switch-fire. The reason for the delay/weaving is to prevent clipping the last tick of the previous ES. If you switch between targets, you will not clip.
Probably the wrong place, but I heard rumors that if you shoot your trap arrow to the foot of the boss that it will trigger lock and load 100% of the time… however, I am not seeing this… did I miss something?
v/r
Kenshunter
This only works if whatever trips the trap is vulnerable to the trap’s effect. Bosses are not, but adds sometimes are. It is also a “free” lock and load, and does not trigger the internal cooldown.
Thanks!
Does this assume a haste rating that will bring Steady Shot to around 1.5 cast time? Or is there a point- say a Steady Shot cast time of 1.7+ which will make this a dps loss?
Unbuffed, my steady shot has a 1.56 second cast time, so I’m pretty close to the soft haste cap. More haste wouldn’t make much of a difference, and a slower 1.7 second cast time would make the DPS loss greater.
Honestly I’ve frequently interleaved instants depending on the circumstances. That being said, the results are probably somewhat dependent on gear and spec so it may not be that we’ve been doing it wrong so much that circumstances have changed a bit. Aimed shot certainly is a lot more dps per GCD with the kind of ArPen most SV hunters are sporting these days than it used to be and serpent sting is as well with the 2pc T9 bonus.
The Excel spreadsheet supports an interleaving option, but since it doesn’t support skipping steady shot when interleaving the dps results were coming out much weaker with interleaving enabled.
I went into my site to check on implementing this for testing purposes. It turns out I already had most of the code implemented for interleaving from the code in Excel. I modified my code so that it wouldn’t use steady shot in the interleave and I’ve updated my site to include the option. With my particular SV setup the difference in dps was pretty minimal (about 26 dps in favor of instant shot interleaving). Others may get different results.
Would it be conceivable to have the site allow a choice for interleaving? Or maybe interleave according to the shot priority, adding a “0.5 second dead space” priority just above steady shot?
I thought about adding in more options so you could list which shots to include in the interleaving but the way it’s setup right now would make that kind of messy. I may do it later. For now at least if folks want they can enable interleaving, it just won’t use steady shot as an interleave option, which is probably best practice anyhow.
Cool, glad to hear my numbers aren’t totally wacked.
Oh no… In the mayhem of a boss fight I always welcome the k-ching of l&l proccing. Not so much for the DPS but the fact it meant that I could chill out for a few seconds and just watch explosive shots tick over before going back to the frenzy…
Now this blessed haven of calm will come at expense of dpslossguiltenfreude … zut