In best possible gear BM is 100dps behind SV, while MM is 1500 dps ahead of both, ~13.5k vs. ~15k dps. It’s not relevant for most of us, but at least BM is raid viable :P

hopefully it will not come out that is was OK already before the buff because it would be hit again with the nerf stick.

Currently on PTR, real life (same char, same equip/gems/ench) i do about 200 dps more (which is negligible) vs the live servers just with the Ferocious inspiration buff

I just put together a spreadsheet version for Frost and everyone to take a look at. I used Frost’s current gear and MM spec, and then switched his talents, glyphs, and Pet talents over to my BM spec, without regemming or changing anything else. The BM spec was behind by 9%, not 30%. We could probably narrow that gap a little more by regemming, etc. Skilled BM DPS is also boosted greatly by syncing major cooldowns with Bestial Wrath, which might narrow that gap yet a little more compared to what the spreadsheet shows. I’m aware that spreadsheets are an imperfect tool, but they’re not as consistently skewed against BM as the top 20 numbers are likely to be. This data is as valid as what Frost posted, if not more.

Take a look at the spreadsheet, I made it public. On Femaledwarf.com, go to Public settings, look up Frostheim MM, and Frostheim BM, and compare.

Let me know what you think.

Because of the stigma BM hunters have (valid or not) it’s possible NONE of those 20 were in top end raiding guilds. It’s also possible they are, but there’s doubt, and doubt makes bad statistics.

This really needs to be done in person, and probably with bigger numbers for a real conclusive study. You need to actually speak to the players and find out if their DPS is representative of that trees actual high end ability.

Because of this, by choosing to stay BM, you’re actually hurting your DPS and thus hurting your raid.

It is becoming the biggest urban legend ever that MM/SV are 30% above BM. This is a typical case where perception is reality and people blindly believe what EJ and Frostheim writes instead than trying for themselves.

I am a BM raider in ICC 25m and on damage meters regularly sit together with other MM/SV hunters on guild raids sometimes a bit higher sometimes a bit lower, usually on PUG VOA 25 i outdps MM/SV hunters by far.
Two night ago i was asked by someone to drop off a VOA25 PUG quick run because of my spec. I challenged him that if my DPS was not up to the raid i would drop off the raid voluntarily, my guild mate that was on the same raid laughed – he knows how BM 100% compares to MM/SV – laughed at my comment as he knew what the outcome of this bet would have been.

I ended up 2nd DPS raid-wide after a rogue at ~8000dps the other 2 MM hunters did not reach 5k.

Who is the parassite ? Me that i play well my spec or the countless MM hunters infesting servers not being able to play their spec ?

I am not a BM, I play SV. I do not play even high content, not yet anyway. My main is not geared up yet, nor have I the time to join a raiding guild. But this affects me, and every other hunter out there. Why? because now every time I get in a 5-man/random dungeon/daily/etc. People is demanding I be MM, and maybe they’ll let me in as SV but not BM (and all this is before they actually ask whether or not I am BM). They have no business doing that. Any spec can pull their weight if played properly. But discussions and comments like this (selfish, 360/month, pantless Bob, etc) just encourage everybody out there to demand of anybody to re-spec.

He could have said that BM was the worst aspect to raid with. Or that raiding with BM was inefficient. He, and you, and many others have decided to attack the people playing BM rather than the spec as a riding tool, which should be what is being discussed.

I just simply want to say that almost all numbers are based on maths or theorycrafting, and those numbers are not 100% acurate on BM, because modeling difficulties.

And then, because modeling theorycrafting and also ‘mouth to mouth’ information, all our community it’s feeling BM are not viable.
But I confirmed many times, modelling through spreadsheets is not allways acurate. Managing rotation, buffs, cooldowns, and so on, it’s a big improvement.

On the other side, there is a lot of combatlogs that show number son Hunters specces in MM, SV at high level, but I don’t see same equipment levels with BM raiders so far. Cannot be easily compared.

What I want to say, is that everything is relative.
You cannot compare data on theorycrafting, and combatlogs because so many variations.

As many partners, I raid ICC10 and ICC25 PUG with BM Spec, and I’m topping DPS charts.

The question is? I do the same DPS if compete with Top End Gear MM or SV? I don’t exactly know, but I’m feeling YES! There is very few hunters on my server and at each server who can actually obtain BiS Gear.

Then, for average level, and even End Level, my conclussion is that BM is performing very well (better in ICC than Ulduar).

For Top-End Level (2-3 guilds at each server), probably not, but I don’t think 10% difference.

At least discussion on this thread it seems good for hunter community, different in many flame post I’ve read.

See you in WoW.

I also want to clear up something. I’m arguing about people claiming that the BM spec isn’t Viable. I’m stating that it’s viable just not Optimum.

Now, if we all can agree that a DPS player should be within a reasonable +/- % of Avg DPS to be considered Viable. AND if the BM spec cannot pull those numbers, then you’ll hear me ranting and raving all over the place that they need to do something for BM hunters.

Something meaning either declare that their intentions are for it not to raid or state that they feel it can raid (i.e. viable) but it will underperfrom other DPS Specs and Classes.

Trust me when I say that I’m battling not for me, but the Hunter community. That’s what has been my mission since starting The Hunting Lodge 2yrs ago. That was in response to players making similar comments about Marks raiders without ever proving it but only claiming b/c Marks underperformed BM and the lone SV raider.

So I’m not out to prove some objective for me. If I’m wrong, I’ll be the first to write and announce it on my blog, my podcast and to the #Warcraft and #WoW Twitteratti. (And trust me Rip will make sure I do it. lol)

Now back to your numbers. It’s not that I don’t understand. It’s that we can’t just make assumptions anymore. We have hard data, let’s use it.

I’m all for using the formula

{[Boss Health - (Tank Dmg + Healer Dmg)]/Enrage Timer}/#DPS Role

If it has actual/verifable numbers and not based on assumptions.

So it’s not understanding. It’s acceptance of hard data vs. assumptions or anecdotal.

And don’t worry. I hold the other side just as accountable. :)

Nobody considers healers when calculating average dps requirements. The combined dps for all 6 healers in that fight was 171. So let’s do some more math.

25 players – 6 healers = 19 players
168,694 – 171 = 168,523

That means the other 19 players need to do 168,694 dps. Now we look at tanks. In that fight they did a combined 9,171 dps

19 players – 2 tanks = 17 players
168,523 – 9,171 = 159,352
159,352 / 17 = 9373

I would also like to point out that they went 10 seconds past the enrage to get the kill. My original math was based on killing him at the enrage. Does this make more sense to you?

And as a final note, the 7,600 dps number you quote from Frostheim is for regular Festergut. I specifically said hard mode. The extra 12M health he has in hard mode makes a big difference in the dps requirements.

Do you play WoW Brygwyn?

I’ll let Rip or someone else answer that one. :)

Do you comprehend the 3 roles in each raid?

Hmm. I dunno this is a hard one….

Tank stand and whack on the bosses ankles until they get mad and try to squish them.

Healer’s wave their arms like they just don’t care. (But the really do or that would be cruel.)

DPS.. now what does that stand for again?? Oh yeah.. We’re the guys that point and go *BOOM* right?

(Sorry for the snarkiness Rip but seriously he deserved that one.)

To answer your question. Pretty much everyone will be doing some DPS. How much and when? That’s a different question. Because, the range goes from minimal to a ton. That’s why there’s an average.

If you need more proof look at the parse you pointed out. 23:25 people contributed DPS.

The Range of DPS was:
Min: 8 DPS
Max: 11,498 DPS

That alone invalidates your argument. But let’s see how far off the average my calculations are.

Total DPS was: 168,694
Avg DPS w/ 23 Players: 7334.52

Hmm.. Seems that Frost and I are a lot more accurate than you my friend.

We only had as +/- 4% error margin. What’s yours?

I will grant you that this is only one case. That’s why I broadened my sample to included 66 reports and just averaged the entire raid.

And if you want to say that the +/- 4% could cause a wipe. I’ll maybe even give you that. But that 4% could probably be made up a lot more than the +33% you’re requiring.

If you want to comb through all the logs and isolate just the DPS classes then determine the average based on that. Then yes, I concur that would be an even more accurate analysis.

However, if you base it off of the entire raid, this is how your numbers add up:
Proposed Scenerio

Required DPS: 174,300dps
Proposed Req. Individual Avg. DPS: 10,253
Actual Total DPS (25 players): 256,325

If you’re going to use averages, then you need to define your population. I had stated that using 66 Successful 25 Man Hard Modes that the:
Average Raid DPS was: 176,054.85
Average Player DPS: 7042.19
Yes, this means you probably have Tanks and Healers below and probably an equal number of players above. (Bellcurve anyone?)

This will mean that there is a majority of players that are right around 7,043 DPS.

But hey! Don’t take my word on it. It’s close to the same number Frostheim gave me. (Actual number provided was 7,600 DPS)

Either way, unless someone actually combs through all the parses or Blizzard publishes some number, we’ll have to agree to disagree I guess.

“This is an interesting point as in a progression fight that a guild has not downed before how does a raid leader know the composition of the raid required to do it? It can take trial and error for fights that are close calls. In a situation like that regardless of class I feel, my opinion, that its each player’s resonsibility to min/max.”

I agree it’s every players responsibility to Min/Max. But it’s the Raid Leader’s responsibility to pick who gets to goes or not.

That being the case, IF a RL decides that the BM Hunter can go, then it’s still the RL’s issue not the Hunter. After the wipe it can be re-evaluated.

However absolving the RL of that responsibility isn’t the correct answer.

It’s their responsibility to determine what is required. IF they feel that the Maximum DPS of each spec is required then okay. And if that’s what it means to be a “Competitive Raider” again, okay. No one is arguing that point.

What is being argued is the fact “Competive Raider” types insisting that “Non-Competitive Raiders” must play like they are. That’s why you get so much angst and pushback. :)

I don’t think I tried to tell people how to play, I tried to explain how I like to play and what type of people I like to play with.

Can you see though by saying, “It’s not just your $15/mo it’s $360/mo” how that’s exactly what you’re saying.

To me, and I feel to many others, they read that as, “Because you raid with me, I have the right to tell you how to play.”

I am glad though to hear that we agree. It’s that you prefer to play with people who would rather min/max all the way and don’t require other people to do the same. :)

It not the DPS of BM that keeps it out of high end guilds and raids, its that there is something that allows the player to contribute more to the raid in the other trees.

I’m sorry but I don’t think I understood this right.

Here’s the literal “message” I got from that statement.

“It’s not that BM cannot do enough DPS, but that Marks and Survival does more DPS.”

Is that correct?

If so, then we’re both saying the same thing.

BM is viable but Marks and SV are more optimum. :)

Looking at the fight from a strictly math perspective, he has 52.29M health. To beat the enrage you need 174,300dps. You can figure it any way you want but the reality is you need very close to 10k for that fight.

You’re forgetting healers and tanks. If you figure the 2 tanks are doing 4k each, the 17 dps need to do 168k. That’s 9.9k average.

Based on all the available Successful Festergut (25man Hardmode) logs at WoW Meter Online

Average Raid DPS: 176,054.85
Minimum Required Average Player DPS: 7042.19

(I’m pretty sure these are the same numbers that Frost posted.)

So can you please tell me why it would be REQUIRED for every player to pull over 10k?

BM can do enough dps to succeed in most content. But go watch the video of Exodus (#5 guild in the world) vs Festergut hard mode and tell me BM can do enough dps for that fight. The minimum average dps to down that in 25 is over 10k. They actually downed him after the enrage with most of the raid dead. A few hundred dps less and they would have wiped.

He takes the top 20 dps reports for hunters of each 3 specs on Marrowgar, Deathwhisper and Festergut from WowMeterOnline and shows that among the top players (that put their logs on WMO), BM underperforms by 20-30%.

Now I’m think that it’s very likely that the top 20 BM hunters on WMO are in serious raiding guilds. So this is an apples to apples comparison.

“Hmm. Not meaning to sound at all disrespectful, but seems wrong to blame me for you’re failure to know what was the capability of your raid vs. what was required.”

This is an interesting point as in a progression fight that a guild has not downed before how does a raid leader know the composition of the raid required to do it? It can take trial and error for fights that are close calls. In a situation like that regardless of class I feel, my opinion, that its each player’s resonsibility to min/max.

“I might not be able to choose HOW you play. But I do get to choose with whom I play.

I’m sure we’ll never agree on this point. All I can do is hope you take a step back and re-examine the logic. And if you still feel I’m wrong, please help me understand where. I’m not unreasonable, just don’t feel it’s a real argument in the debate.”

I don’t think I tried to tell people how to play, I tried to explain how I like to play and what type of people I like to play with.

I just tend to think that the type of player that clears new content at a rapid to good pace is the type of player who min/maxes and expects the same from all raid members. It not the DPS of BM that keeps it out of high end guilds and raids, its that there is something that allows the player to contribute more to the raid in the other trees.

I’m certain I could switch to BM and still easily clear the first wing of ICC with my guild. On the other hand it is not progression viable where min/maxing is vital.

I’m more willing to agree to this statement than any of the others. Though I’m not sure the numbers really prove it out.

Honestly, using the word “viable” is

Websters definition of Viable: having a reasonable chance of succeeding.

BM can do enough DPS to succeed.

But can it do enough DPS to guarentee that it’s not a contributing factor?

Nope, that I agree. And in that case it’s not Optimum (the amount or degree of something that is most favorable to some end).

But yes, I can suck it up and begrudgingly state it’s not “progression viable” where min/maxing to the fullest. :)

“the raid’s $360 argument″

I apologize if I wasn’t clear. Also, I’m sorry if I inferred that you didn’t have the right to play with whomever you wish.

But really, I think that’s the answer right there.

I have $15 to play as I want. “Raid” as BM or not. “Raid” with a 30/20/20 spec if I want.

But just because I choose to play that way, I can’t expect you to accept me with those criteria.

However, IF you brought me a long. Well then you’re going to now blame me for the failure, force me to respecc because you didn’t realize I didn’t bring more DPS to the table?

Hmm. Not meaning to sound at all disrespectful, but seems wrong to blame me for you’re failure to know what was the capability of your raid vs. what was required.

Maybe we need to agree to who is responsible for creating the strategy and planning for the Raids success.

Guild Officers for establishing Raid Rules?

Class Leads establishing and ensuring players meet the Guilds Class/Spec requirements?

Raid Leader for making sure the raid composition is correct for the raid?

Player, for not playing a spec they may not enjoy?

I see lot’s of grey area there and honestly, all of those people have a stake n how they play the game for their $15.

Maybe put it even in more simplistic terms.

I might not be able to choose HOW you play. But I do get to choose with whom I play.

I’m sure we’ll never agree on this point. All I can do is hope you take a step back and re-examine the logic. And if you still feel I’m wrong, please help me understand where. I’m not unreasonable, just don’t feel it’s a real argument in the debate.

Why argue over a hypothetical situation that simply doesn’t exist? How many guilds have you seen recruiting BM hunters? I’ve looked through the recruitment forums and I have yet to see a single one. Try apping to a progression guild as BM and see what happens.

I think the title of this article is what’s dividing people. BM is raid viable. I’m certain I could switch to BM and still easily clear the first wing of ICC with my guild. On the other hand it is not progression viable where min/maxing is vital.

The point I’m trying to make is that each person in a raid should have the same accountability to the raid as a whole to do their best with the best tools that they have. To say otherwise implies that your preference is more important than the raid’s, possible, succes.

Here’s a hypothetical for you.

You are in a raid and you are top DPS, class or spec whatever, do you still flask, use food buff, DPS pots? If yes, why? You are still tops DPS.
If no is it because you feel that you are doing enough already?

Personally I don’t want someone who is “doing enough already” I want some one who wants to do better each time they face a boss. I want someone who pots, flaska, and foods for each attempt.

But thats how I want to spend my $15 when I play.

I have nothing against anyone who chooses to play as BM, there is no stigma as far as I’m concerned. No looking down on a spec choice. What I do look down on is someone feeling entitled to playing with only themselves in mind when in a raid setting.

To be honest this only really matters when a guild is trying new content. I just feel that everyone in that raid has to do the best they can in their role. Otherwise why raid with them.

I just think anyone who thinks BM is fun is weird :-D

ROFL! That’s alright.

Trust me, it’s not the first time I’ve been called “weird.” lol

“Its the raid’s $360 a month. Pull your weight.”

This really is NOT a valid argument.

IF I’ve already been accepted into a Raid as BM then you’ve already agreed to the fact I’m not going to be reaching my Class’ Maximum Potential.

Having accepted this limitation into your raid and proceed to constantly wipe. You can’t just point to the BM Hunter and say “HEY! It’s your fault!” just because they’re specced as BM. It was a risk you the raid (all $360 of you) all agreed to.

Now, if it comes back that the RL decides that the BM Hunter must respecc or not be included the BM Hunter has 3 options.

1. Don’t respecc and don’t raid
2. Suck it up and respecc and raid
3. Find another Guild that’s willing to let them Raid.

But please, let’s just stop beating that horse about it’s everyone else’s $360.

I’m sorry but comments such as this that help to fan the flames on this issue.

“But if a hunter or his raid does expect to clear the highest content, then a BM hunter is being selfish.”

Really, you can only say BM Hunters are being selfish when there aren’t any other options for their or the raid’s improvement.

I will agree though, if the BM Hunter is truly the cause of the wipe and not just a contributing factor, then yes it would be wrong to insist on going along.

However, I really doubt this is the case. Typically, it’s a laundry list of issues causing the wipe.

And really, let’s put the blame on the shoulders wehre it belongs. The Raid Leader.

Remember it’s the Raid Leader who is responsible for who goes and who doesn’t. It’s their job to make sure that the have enough of each role to be successful.

And for DPS. It’s the RL’s (or the Class Leader) to make sure that the Raid’s Avg. DPS is going to be higher than what’s required.

Maybe I just look at things differently.

This. If you’re a casual player then do whatever makes you happy. If you’re in a progression guild you have 9 or 24 other people depending on you. Not min/maxing isn’t fair to those other people. I already feel bad enough when I make a mistake in a raid.

The other side of that was “Its the raid’s $360 a month. Pull your weight.”

IMO min/maxing, is part of pulling your weight when you are in a progession raid guild. If you choose to not min/max then you are putting your preference ahead of 24 other people who are expected to do everything they can to down the next boss.

Now if you are not in that type of guild then we are back to “Its your $15.”

Personally I respecced to BM for guild alt Ulduars, no hardmodes, just to play with a big red rhino on trash and adds. Great fun. The best were the bomb bots around Mimron. MD them to a raid member and then boot the bots 1/2 way to your target.

No one, to my knowledge, has ever said you shouldn’t play how you want to, nor have they said they you need to switch from BM. The point has always been: if you want to help your raid as much as possible, quit playing BM. And don’t expect to clear the highest content if you do. If you don’t expect to, nor does your raid group, you’re golden. But if a hunter or his raid does expect to clear the highest content, then a BM hunter is being selfish.

So I don’t see this as infecting anything. It’s bloggers admitting the truth about the various specs.

I immediately noticed after the switch to MM that this spec was much, much more fun than BM.

I don’t care for the min/max argument, I don’t care for the casual-vs-hardcore argument, or even the semantic argument of defining “raid viability”.

I just think anyone who thinks BM is fun is weird :-D

I’d like to see how you’re calculating such a small margine of DPS difference. To clarify, I’d like to see what I’m doing wrong. Because even when I do the numbers I’m seeing a larger than 700 DPS difference. Now you’re right, it might be that I’m not theorycrafting to the Nth degree. But that’s a pretty small margin and one that should be explored further.

Now back to your second commment.

What you’re highlighting is a difference in what everyone here is calling skill. This is not only the ability to properly execute shot rotations, procs, maintain cooldowns, and pet management. But along with that comes the knowledge of how to do all of that.

Do most players go to this extreme? I don’t think so. But enough of them do or sites like here and other’s wouldn’t exist. ;)

“The downside to this is that hardcore players often don’t understand why anyone would settle for less than hardcore. The most dismissive hardcores do think everyone else is just settling and assume that people are moderate and casual because they can’t compete at the highest levels. This isn’t necessarily because hardcores are too arrogant to see the truth as much as because they really don’t understand why anyone would play a game and not want to “beat” it.

Hardcores can be hard on the other two types because moderate and casual attitudes frustrate and confuse them. It’s really as simple as that.”

Frostheim will never understand why some ppl “choose” to not top the charts any more that I would ever understand why some ppl take a weekend away from family or a work day off to play a pc/console game. It’s really as simple as that.

But if we speak of hardcore guilds on a rush for kills in which little changes can make or break stuff (and then we also imagine a BM hunter in that spot, which is a long jump in the current context) then it would be no surprise if said BM hunter was asked for a respec in order to push 1000 more dps, and he would have no right to complain about it cause he would surely know the place where he would be at.

Thus, with all due respects to all posters, with many of them knowing a lot more than me about raiding in general, I see this as an “imaginary argument” cause it seems to me like this type of conflicts cannot really arise in the real world (of warcraft). That BM hunter is either:

- A very bad player, so any arguing about it is non-sensical.

- Is a good player in a “normal” guild in which his performance would never be a problem and can even easily be one of the top dpsers in the guild.

No BM hunter will be pushing for world first right now, and any hunter that really wants to get into that level of raiding or the one below that one will naturally drift towards the current dominant spec as a part of his transition from “having fun and trying to be the best player he can” to “trying to get the best performances possible in order to progress through high level content”

That said, I apologize for the wall of text.

And I really think everyone is okay with that.

Read the one point everyone seems to agree on:

“If you aren’t having fun, then it’s not worth it.”

I really think the majority of “BM Raiding” Hunters are okay with not being allowed in the Top Competitive Guilds/Raids if it requires them to play the TOP-DPS spec all the time.

They just don’t like being called names or having their skills called into question because of their play-style. :)

I typically attribute that to the “I might be 5’5″ but I can dunk!…(on my son’s Lil Tykes Basketball hoop)” analogy.

Both sides are equally right. To that person and in their world, they’re the big fish and unless you prove otherwise they’re top DPS.

But move them to a different pond? They’ll soon realize there really is a difference.

But it’s equally incorrect to say that they can’t dunk. Because it’s pretty obvious they can. ;) (Okay, that’s a REALLY hokie analogy, but I hope it got the point across.)

“The only reason there is so much debate is becuase most hunters being that it’s such an easy class to play decently don’t take the time to learn how to play it properly.”

Not really true. The issue is about equally respecting each other. And the more I think about it, maybe Rip is correct in that we should be focusing our debates around the definition of “Raid.” (Though I’m still out on that one.)

The BM Raider is typically skilled and knows their class well. It’s they have chosen to raid with a limitation.

It is being told that this is “wrong” or that “they don’t know how to play” that sets them off.

Don’t believe me? Talk to a MM raider that plays today that raided as MM in BC. You’ll hear a very similar refrain.

Of course the problem is that since they are BM, they don’t get invited to top-end raids. And so this in-person comparison never happens, and both sides continue to argue their separate points.

I’m pretty sure everyone agrees that the numbers state the DPS Priorty atm (depending on level, gear, etc..) is:
1. MM
2. SV
3. BM

/shrug

That´s obvious, every one knows that and the only point here is one side claims that NOT min/maxing is not acceptable and the other side defends its right to not do it as long as they cannot be claimed responsible for any hindrances to the raid performance as a whole

This isn’t entirely correct. BM Raiders are asking to be relieved of their responsibility. They’re asking for acceptance. This is a big difference.

Ask any BM Raiding Hunter if they feel that being prepared, properly geared, and learning the skills at providing the best DPS possible is their responsibility? They’ll all shout out a resounding “HE** YES!!

But ask them if it should be Expected or they should be forced to respecc to achieve that goal? And they’ll all say “HE** NO!!”

The key is managing expectations on both side.

As long as both walk in with the same understanding then this isn’t an issue. But we don’t live in a perfect world and PUGs are ruled by folks that read “Best” or “Highest” and immediately think “Required.”

That is why I and other Hunters get so worked up. I guess it can be boiled down to respecting each other.

(Man this was a lot longer than I thought. Sorry Rip and h0ly)

I don’t think anyone is arguing that point.

The BM players know they’re NOT Min/Maxing fullest.

However, it would be wrong to categorize all BM Hunters as casual slackers. Many are really working hard to make their beloved spec as optimum and competitive as possible.

Do they know the limitations and that in the end an equally skilled player in equal gear running ICC would outDPSthem? (hehe see what I did there?) Yep! Most do. And those that don’t are deluding themselves.

They just don’t like being categorized as slacking or belittled because their view of “raiding” (hmm. maybe that does work Rip) is different than your’s, mine, Rips or even Frost’s. :)