Comments on: When to Roll on Leather!

By: eddy

eddy — Wed, 16 Dec 2009 02:54:51 +0000

I had a strong hunger for rogue gear during BC. I find lately I tend to prefer mail gear. However? I’m pretty unhappy that the new random pug group won’t let me have any higher priority on leather than Greed- or worse, Disenchant! I’m rocking a few leather items from the TOC five-man because I’m not raiding like I did in BC, and I know I won’t end up with any of the rogue gear from the new Heroics. Sometimes the raw dps increase can be worth losing the intellect on one or two pieces (especially if you’re making a major upgrade.)

By: Fawatam

Fawatam — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:19:49 +0000

I have no problems taking leather if it’s better than the mail gear I currently have. However, that’s rarely the case, and I refuse to like the Holy Pally rolling on Cloth against the Priests just because the gear is an upgrade. If no rogues or druids want it for main spec, then I’ll roll. Otherwise I’ll pass. I also don’t feel bad rolling on a druid stat stick (With the exception of our tank who I feel gets priority on gear anyways). It’s main spec for me I’m going to roll, even if our DK, Druid or Ret Pally wants it too.

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 00:42:35 +0000

I agree completely- this is one of those situations where we don’t even need the statistical modeling provided by the spreadsheets- we have much more accurate (and relevant) real game data.

By: hunter22

hunter22 — Sun, 06 Dec 2009 23:07:57 +0000

I think the best way to judge is: if you ever find yourself having to dps in viper, you don’t have enough int. If you’re Survival, that pretty much never happens. If you’re marksman, using volley or dpsing adds without jow means you may have to switch to viper & may want to switch out your leather gear.

By: Jaedia

Jaedia — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 13:30:38 +0000

Gloves from Faction Champs 10 man heroic. In fact, I’m currently using the non-heroic ones. The arp on them, and red gem slots, make them much more awesome than the bloody T9 gloves..
But generally at a higher gear level I do try to avoid it, because if there’s a better mail item, it’s unfair to take leather from the rogues and kitties.

By: Rilgon Arcsinh

Rilgon Arcsinh — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 13:04:12 +0000

When they’re these: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47945

By: Zeherah

Zeherah — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 08:30:41 +0000

The spreadsheet calculations assume that you have available the buffs you specify. If you tell it not to use JoW it will. Generally you need to make your own judgements on these things based on your raid situation. Our raid has pretty erratic JoW support but I find that on most fights there are downtime periods where I can viper without losing much (inbetween phases and during worm submerges on beasts for instance), which is something the spreadsheet can’t effectively simulate.

I generally prefer to avoid using more than one piece of leather, but if there’s a very good piece of leather for a slot where a good mail piece doesn’t exist (such as the heroic leather gloves from ToC 10) then I’ll use it. I won’t take it from a rogue or feral druid, but we don’t run with that many and often these things will go to waste anyhow.

The other people who may want to use lots of leather are folks who just recently hit 80. By expanding your horizons to both leather and mail you can stock up a lot faster with gear, especially since some slots are harder to fill than others. Ideally you want to transition out of that leather as you get better gear but when you’re first starting out it’s good stuff too.

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Sat, 05 Dec 2009 01:10:43 +0000

Fair enough- I should have used the term “best available”

By: Eidotrope

Eidotrope — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 23:45:29 +0000

I don’t know exactly how reforging will work in Cataclysm, but I suspect it will lead to other kinds of gear poaching even if the leather issue is done away with.

By: sicris

sicris — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 23:37:08 +0000

none of the listed bracers where bis during ulduar.

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 23:02:01 +0000

I meant the lack of int increases the amount of time you spend in viper- sorry for the confusing wording. As for the buffs, the only ones that affect your mana are the judgment of wisdom, replenishment uptime, and BoW/shammie totem. It’s fairly common to have all these :)

By: Negathle

Negathle — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:41:49 +0000

I think you made a typo there – Int *decreases* the amount of time in Viper, it *increases* the amount of mana gained through Viper.

I whole heartedly agree with hunter22 – unless you are getting every single buff/debuff, you probably need the Int.

By: Michael

Michael — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 21:10:07 +0000

At the time, Mask of Distant Memory was a better headpiece than the mail I had been coming across. It was replaced once i got my T8 pieces tho’.

By: Awesome Mom

Awesome Mom — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:31:45 +0000

Bwahaha!

By: Omogon

Omogon — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:52:06 +0000

I will wear leather if it improves my dps. I wore Dragonfriend bracers for ages.

By: Grik

Grik — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 18:13:40 +0000

These gloves http://www.wowhead.com/?item=48017 are extremely attractive to Hunter’s who don’t have access to heroic tier gear, since ToC doesn’t drop mail gloves. I think just about everything else in ToC has a mail item that is better than it’s leather counterpart. However, when moving to a new tier, like when ICC comes out, just about all the leather you see will probably be an upgrade. Do not let it get sharded.

By: Kataron

Kataron — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 17:24:57 +0000

My guild lets leather go to rogues and druids first, mail to hunters and shamans first. We can’t even bid on leather unless the rogues already have it or don’t want it. Although I usually prefer mail anyway.

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:51:27 +0000

I suspect that if I had to run without it, I’d also pass up leather. However, I’m lucky enough that I can count on usually having it.

In general, I strongly suggest people only use things that are upgrades for their situation. Just because I was able to get more DPS out of leather doesn’t mean that everyone will be able to. The gear I had at the time, the buffs, the spec, it all plays a part.

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:49:49 +0000

I don’t feel bad relieving a feral druid of their hunter stick. And before you start down the road of “They actually use that weapon for DPS, like we use our ranged weapons”, I’d like to remind you that not one feral druid I’ve ever seen has opposable thumbs.

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:47:53 +0000

Cataclysm is coming with a rework of all existing gear baked in, so while I don’t imagine we’re be issue free, I don’t think this will be one ;)

By: Gwaith

Gwaith — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:42:09 +0000

This is going to be a major issue in cataclysm imo, as Intelligence will no longer be a stat for hunters and we could roll for leathers without losing too much stats.

A similar situation is becoming common between hunters and pallys. I’ve seen several times Pallys rolling for mail items ’cause it seems they can get much more from mails packed with agility and inteligence.

By: Lyraat

Lyraat — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:38:51 +0000

INT and AP loss for more…what? ArP? Haste? Crit? Yeah, I’ll pass on leather, thanks. Stats are not created equal. Agi > AP > ArP/crit > haste. Mail usually has much higher effective AP than leather due to Careful Aim’s conversion of INT to AP. The spreadsheet calculations are skewed because they assume we never run out of mana, or spend very little time in Viper. They don’t factor in using utility attacks, JoW/mana totem/Wisdom not being up, mana drains, etc.

If it’s an upgrade that going to be sharded, grab leather. But always value mail over leather.

By: hunter22

hunter22 — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:20:24 +0000

I usually turn off judgement of wisdom debuff on the spreadsheet to measure dps, so in that case, I find that leather is rarely best in slot. If it was though, I suppose I’d roll on it. In Ulduar, I used the Hodir bindings (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45454), which were the best for my gearset.

By: jesse (shipuu from cho'gall)

jesse (shipuu from cho'gall) — Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:06:00 +0000

I avoid leather in all cases. I like the int and regen I get from it. I already feel bad enough taking feral druid weapons for a stat stick.