Ever since we hit level 40 and gained the ability to wear mail, we’re considered a mail class. Once we hit 80 and start raiding, however, it can be profitable to take a look back at leather sometimes!
There are of course pros and cons.
Pros:
- Sometimes, leather pieces (intended for rogues, generally) have stats we can use.
- Sometimes, these pieces have more of that stat than their mail equivalents!
- Expanding the list of gear you’re willing to wear to include leather will increase your chances of getting an upgrade.
Cons:
- Leather has less armor. This is not a major issue- you shouldn’t be getting hit that much ;)
- Leather doesn’t have intellect, which can increase the amount of time you spend in viper, and unbalance your stat mix.
- Leather often has expertise. Never ever take this from a rogue, and don’t wear it for long even if it would have been sharded. Expertise is useless to us, and is lost itemization.
- Wearing leather angers classes that can only use leather (and I wasn’t sure whether to put this as a pro or con :P).
A perfect example of when leather is okay is in Ulduar. Flame Leviathan drops the mechanist’s bindings, which (unless you need the hit from the alternatives) was best in slot for many hunters. I waited until all my rogues got theirs, and then picked one up for the minimum DKP- I missed the intellect a little bit (it’s a nice chunk of attack power, as well as mana) but the increased stats made up for the lower AP, and I could evade aspect of the viper in many fights by using viper sting on an add or something.
What about you guys? Do you avoid leather even if it’s a DPS upgrade? What if a rogue needs it? What if it’ll be sharded?
Euripides
jurgwena
lemli
eidotrope
pherra
femaledwarf
I avoid leather in all cases. I like the int and regen I get from it. I already feel bad enough taking feral druid weapons for a stat stick.
I don’t feel bad relieving a feral druid of their hunter stick. And before you start down the road of “They actually use that weapon for DPS, like we use our ranged weapons”, I’d like to remind you that not one feral druid I’ve ever seen has opposable thumbs.
Bwahaha!
I usually turn off judgement of wisdom debuff on the spreadsheet to measure dps, so in that case, I find that leather is rarely best in slot. If it was though, I suppose I’d roll on it. In Ulduar, I used the Hodir bindings (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45454), which were the best for my gearset.
I suspect that if I had to run without it, I’d also pass up leather. However, I’m lucky enough that I can count on usually having it.
In general, I strongly suggest people only use things that are upgrades for their situation. Just because I was able to get more DPS out of leather doesn’t mean that everyone will be able to. The gear I had at the time, the buffs, the spec, it all plays a part.
INT and AP loss for more…what? ArP? Haste? Crit? Yeah, I’ll pass on leather, thanks. Stats are not created equal. Agi > AP > ArP/crit > haste. Mail usually has much higher effective AP than leather due to Careful Aim’s conversion of INT to AP. The spreadsheet calculations are skewed because they assume we never run out of mana, or spend very little time in Viper. They don’t factor in using utility attacks, JoW/mana totem/Wisdom not being up, mana drains, etc.
If it’s an upgrade that going to be sharded, grab leather. But always value mail over leather.
The spreadsheet calculations assume that you have available the buffs you specify. If you tell it not to use JoW it will. Generally you need to make your own judgements on these things based on your raid situation. Our raid has pretty erratic JoW support but I find that on most fights there are downtime periods where I can viper without losing much (inbetween phases and during worm submerges on beasts for instance), which is something the spreadsheet can’t effectively simulate.
I generally prefer to avoid using more than one piece of leather, but if there’s a very good piece of leather for a slot where a good mail piece doesn’t exist (such as the heroic leather gloves from ToC 10) then I’ll use it. I won’t take it from a rogue or feral druid, but we don’t run with that many and often these things will go to waste anyhow.
The other people who may want to use lots of leather are folks who just recently hit 80. By expanding your horizons to both leather and mail you can stock up a lot faster with gear, especially since some slots are harder to fill than others. Ideally you want to transition out of that leather as you get better gear but when you’re first starting out it’s good stuff too.
This is going to be a major issue in cataclysm imo, as Intelligence will no longer be a stat for hunters and we could roll for leathers without losing too much stats.
A similar situation is becoming common between hunters and pallys. I’ve seen several times Pallys rolling for mail items ’cause it seems they can get much more from mails packed with agility and inteligence.
Cataclysm is coming with a rework of all existing gear baked in, so while I don’t imagine we’re be issue free, I don’t think this will be one ;)
I don’t know exactly how reforging will work in Cataclysm, but I suspect it will lead to other kinds of gear poaching even if the leather issue is done away with.
My guild lets leather go to rogues and druids first, mail to hunters and shamans first. We can’t even bid on leather unless the rogues already have it or don’t want it. Although I usually prefer mail anyway.
These gloves http://www.wowhead.com/?item=48017 are extremely attractive to Hunter’s who don’t have access to heroic tier gear, since ToC doesn’t drop mail gloves. I think just about everything else in ToC has a mail item that is better than it’s leather counterpart. However, when moving to a new tier, like when ICC comes out, just about all the leather you see will probably be an upgrade. Do not let it get sharded.
I will wear leather if it improves my dps. I wore Dragonfriend bracers for ages.
At the time, Mask of Distant Memory was a better headpiece than the mail I had been coming across. It was replaced once i got my T8 pieces tho’.
I think you made a typo there – Int *decreases* the amount of time in Viper, it *increases* the amount of mana gained through Viper.
I whole heartedly agree with hunter22 – unless you are getting every single buff/debuff, you probably need the Int.
I meant the lack of int increases the amount of time you spend in viper- sorry for the confusing wording. As for the buffs, the only ones that affect your mana are the judgment of wisdom, replenishment uptime, and BoW/shammie totem. It’s fairly common to have all these :)
I think the best way to judge is: if you ever find yourself having to dps in viper, you don’t have enough int. If you’re Survival, that pretty much never happens. If you’re marksman, using volley or dpsing adds without jow means you may have to switch to viper & may want to switch out your leather gear.
I agree completely- this is one of those situations where we don’t even need the statistical modeling provided by the spreadsheets- we have much more accurate (and relevant) real game data.
none of the listed bracers where bis during ulduar.
Fair enough- I should have used the term “best available”
When they’re these: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47945
Gloves from Faction Champs 10 man heroic. In fact, I’m currently using the non-heroic ones. The arp on them, and red gem slots, make them much more awesome than the bloody T9 gloves..
But generally at a higher gear level I do try to avoid it, because if there’s a better mail item, it’s unfair to take leather from the rogues and kitties.
I have no problems taking leather if it’s better than the mail gear I currently have. However, that’s rarely the case, and I refuse to like the Holy Pally rolling on Cloth against the Priests just because the gear is an upgrade. If no rogues or druids want it for main spec, then I’ll roll. Otherwise I’ll pass. I also don’t feel bad rolling on a druid stat stick (With the exception of our tank who I feel gets priority on gear anyways). It’s main spec for me I’m going to roll, even if our DK, Druid or Ret Pally wants it too.
I had a strong hunger for rogue gear during BC. I find lately I tend to prefer mail gear. However? I’m pretty unhappy that the new random pug group won’t let me have any higher priority on leather than Greed- or worse, Disenchant! I’m rocking a few leather items from the TOC five-man because I’m not raiding like I did in BC, and I know I won’t end up with any of the rogue gear from the new Heroics. Sometimes the raw dps increase can be worth losing the intellect on one or two pieces (especially if you’re making a major upgrade.)