[edit 25 Sept 2009: this was written before the last patch, and I have a new version that covers it after the update]
I’m sure you’ve read that all the cool hunters are gemming for armor pen, and seeing good results from it. The best possible DPS thread over at elitist jerks shows a very high setup using mostly armor penetration, however this information should be taken with a grain of salt. In fact, agility will almost always get you more DPS, and today we’re going to figure out why.
Agility adds DPS in a fairly steady manner. Every point will give you pretty close to the same DPS as the point before it. It has no effective cap, it increases the damage of all of your shots, and aside from hit rating, it’s the highest natural DPS per itemization point for most normal setups.
Armor penetration (ArP) adds DPS differently. It only affects our auto-shot, aimed shot, and steady shot damage. At high levels of ArP, it will eventually surpass agility, however once you’re in 25 man normal mode T8 level stuff, you’ll find that ArP is about as good as crit. To the right, you’ll see my DPS per attribute table from the online version of the DPS Spreadsheet. Now, at this point, switching all my gems from agility to ArP would cost me about 0.3 DPS per point. However, that ratio changes as I add more ArP- after switching gems and getting some ArP upgrades, I might only lose 0.2 DPS or 0.1 DPS compared to agility, until we reach the break even point. Bear in mind- getting to the break even point will cost you DPS, but will reward your itemization points more from there.
At least, that’s the theory.
So what’s the background info here? Well, the fantastic numbers that are at the end of the tunnel here come with conditions. First, you need to have a trinket that can proc a large amount of armor pen- specifically the mjolnir runestone or the grim toll. Secondly, when they proc, you need to fire as many auto-shots, aimed shots, and steady shots as possible. This means standing still.
The advice usually given is to go for ArP once you can reach a passive amount (not including your trinket procs) of 566 if you have the runestone, or 619 if you have the grim toll. This will ensure that you never go over the cap when your trinket procs. One of the problems of the older versions of the DPS spreadsheet is that it would average out the ArP gained from the proc over time, not calculating the fact that people would be over the cap when the trinkets procced. This has been fixed recently, and the DPS results for the ArP build dropped correspondingly.
Basically, going for an ArP build might increase your DPS on certain fights, but it’s very proc and RNG dependant. Also, on movement intense fights where you may not be able to stop and fire steady shots on a proc (most of Ulduar), you’d be better off with agility. Lastly, on any fights where you get a magic damage buff (general vezax, hodir), your build will not be optimized to take advantage, as ArP only affects physical shots.
If you are looking to min max fights where you can stand still, then by all means, use ArP. Just be aware that your DPS will suffer compared to agility hunters on many Ulduar encounters.
Excellent article! Just what I’ve been looking for.
Thanks! I aim to deliver.
Fantastic article. I’ve never been a fan of ArmPen, yet it’s currently all the rage as you’ve mentioned. It’s nice to have some really solid numbers to back up my arguments, especially the threshold of when to look to stack pen. It’s nice as a tertiary stat after Agil and AP, but I’m not dropping any of my gems for it, and I’m not rolling on gear specifically for it either. Personally I’d almost rather have haste.
Actually it’s closer to crit than haste- haste only affects steady shot (until you’re under 1.5 seconds) and auto shot. In general, always be aware of what your DPS per itemization point (see screenshot above) is.
Did the ArPen mouseover get borked? It shows as 0 everytime look at it, for myself or your armory, Euripides…
It’s always been borked, and will probably always be borked :) Try one of the armory alternatives or pull a character into http://www.femaledwarf.com to see the proper numbers.
Bang-up job. So many people are hung up on it on places like MMO-C, and I keep reinforcing it – don’t even TRY to switch to an ArPen rotation/spec until you’ve got at LEAST 450-500 passive ArPen PLUS a trinket. It’s just not worth it until then.
But boy howdy is it worth it when you do.
I don’t know, it might not even be worth it when you do. It’s not like you can spec out of armor pen gems if you are on a fight that doesn’t allow you the luxury of stopping and firing steady shots when your trinket procs.
Great article, I’ve been unsure as to what the passive amount needed is so thanks for clearing that up.
I’m also not sure how useful it would be to gem for ArPen, due to the high movement fights in Ulduar. Stacking it on gear is probably fine, there is certainly a lot of it on Uld gear anyway, but as you’ve said on fights that require a lot of movement you’d really be hindered on the amount steady/autos you can fire off and the ArPen gems seem like a waste in those situations.
Also, probably a silly question but where do you look to see how much ArPen you have? I seem to have moused-over every stat I can find on my armory but can’t see it >.<
mouse over your hit, it should be in brackets.
Passive meaning without armor pen gems?
meaning all ArP from gear and gems, but not including the ArP from procs.
My passive armor pen according to shandara’s is at 570 and I have Grim Toll…shall i go ahead and start replacing my agi gems for arp?
If you’re dead set on making an armor pen build, then yes. You will continue to get DPS from armor pen gems until you hit 620 from gems and gear. After that point, your proc will put you over the cap.
Bear in mind- agility benefits all of your attacks. Armor pen only increases auto-shot, aimed shot, and steady shot. You may actually lose DPS when you do fights that require a lot of movement.
This can be mitigated by stuttering your run- stop every second or so for a fraction of a second to let an auto-shot go off.
Kudos on a great article. I’m living proof of your logic. Let me explain…
There are two heroic Ulduar geared hunters (me and the other guy) in our guild, both >2500 gear score (WoW Heroes).
- I am SV, and spec’d for AGI (1600 unbuffed)
- He is MM, and spec’d for ArP (can’t tell how much, as his armory is PvP saved, but he has to be near 450)
- I consistently pull higher DPS and damage in 25 man Ulduar raids.
- Last week, we ran Naxx due to a server issue with Ulduar, and I did 6830 on Patchwerk vs. his 6290.
My point, even for a straight stand and shoot fight, is that AGI outdoes ArP. While we recognize that the spreadsheet and number crunching seems to indicate that ArP is better, I’ve yet to see that play out in reality.
Euripides, I think you are right – the overall and consistent boost to DPS that comes from AGI coupled with a few L&L procs yields greater output that an ArP build which depends on procs and damage done within them to count.
Don’t get me wrong- I’ll bet that in your gear you’d see a boost by switching to MM. This will be even more true when they nerf lock and load in 3.2. Going armor penetration, however, is a dodgy choice at best that will only perform well in a couple of patchwerk like fights.
How can you compare agility to arp when you are using a totally different spec? Also, naxx is naxx. For instance in ulduar you probably won’t be able to keep the sniper training which is significant dps loss. On steelbreaker last you will have approximately 90 seconds to kill him. Popping bloodlust, a haste pot and 2x rapid fire while ignoring 98% of the bosses armor when your trinket procs really pays off. Don’t be surprised to see 5k autoshots every second.
I’m comparing agility to armor penetration for marks hunters, not survival. Armor pen is certainly a viable way to spec because it increases the maximum DPS you can put out, however it suffers more from movement than agility builds. There are also fights (like Hodir and General) where your magic DPS is increased, and armor penetration will not increase those abilities.edit: Euripides fails at reading.
Apologizes if it wasn’t clear enough that my comment was an reply to Diaxx :-). I partly agree with you there since I haven’t done Hodir with all agi gems. Keep in mind that with an arp build goes like CS – 4x steady shot erasing arcane shot out of the rotation. Of course you might want to weave in arcane shot on fights where magic damage is increased but does that cover up for (even more) increased damage for aimed steady and chimera shot?
heh, my comments view from inside WP doesn’t show me threads- I didn’t see that you were replying to Diaxx :)
You might also mention here that if you gem for armor pen, you cant dual spec to Survival, which is still useful on some fights.
Good point. Actually, I find SV to be more DPS for my level of gear; T8 25 man normal mode. If I had an ArP build, I’d either have to keep thousands of gold worth of gems on me to respec.
Have anyone tryed out the old SS build(0/40/31) with a lot of Armor Pen? Glyphs SS, Aimed and Kill
Not that I’ve heard, but you could see what it might look like by plugging it into http://www.femaledwarf.com. Generally, though, the 51 point talents in any tree are a must. No amount of points in another tree (short of 51) will make up for their lack.
Tryed it… It was crap^^
Very helpful, yet some of us are trying to figure out howmuch help ArP helps in pvp.
personally I thought it only useful for dedicated paladin-killers and such, as I usually tend to run out of health before i do mana.
but as i consider to respec to dps instead of crowd control in pvp I sure would like to know how big these differences are setting aside all resillience and stamina increases.
an estimate in percentage would help a lot, dont make a full mathjob for me please.