Comments on: Switch to Marksmanship!

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 01:57:27 +0000

I saw a distinct increase in my DPS when I went MM, but only once I learned the rotation and its adaptations to the encounters I do.

By: Diaxx

Diaxx — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:47:04 +0000

Bah! He doesn’t listen to me. One of those ‘I know everything’ hunters.

My posting was more in regards to not seeing the MM vs SV advantage executed in reality. I am more than happy with SV as long as I’m top DPS and damage – why change.

I just don’t understand the argument about switching to MM since between the two of us in our guild, the SV spec seems to pull more damage.

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 22:05:44 +0000

the MM argument is compelling. At his level without stacking armor penetration, he should be a fair bit better once he got used to the rotations. Also, armor pen only looks good on paper assuming you can fire off nothing but steady shots when your trinket(s) proc. Not many Ulduar fights afford us that luxury. Patchwerk would of course, but not any movement fights.

Tell him to regem agility or AP (as the spreadsheet suggests), and make sure he knows his rotations.

By: Diaxx

Diaxx — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:24:08 +0000

So, there are two well geared, well experienced hunters in our raiding guild. (We’ve down’d Yogg in Heroic + some hard modes, for what it’s worth).

Anyway, his gear score is slightly higher and he switched to MM focusing on ArP 3 weeks ago. But, I stayed SV and pull more DPS with ease. At first, I figured he needed to get used to the rotation, but I’m still pulling 5200-5500 DPS verses his 4400-4800.

I’m not buying the MM argument just yet. And, ArP is one of the most understood stats in the game. Gearing for it looks good on paper (spreadsheet) but doesn’t pay off the same in-game reality. Any other high end raiders experience this?

By: Nefernet

Nefernet — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:23:51 +0000

Hi !

I read somewhere (can’t tell you exactly where, maybe on several blogs or forums) why MM is supposed to give better dps once you got a range weapon from Ulduar (ilvl 226 I think).

That’s because MM main abilities scale more on raw dps (Chimera shot, autoshot) than SV, the main abilities scaling more on AP (Explosive shot mostly). And the raw dps of Ulduar weapons have been boosted.

By: Amathyste

Amathyste — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:43:04 +0000

Despite what it says in the Elitist Jerks thread, the DPS spreadsheet can actually be run from Open Office. It doesn’t do the automatic armory grab, but most of the gear is available on the drop-downs, so I’ve never had a problem. I’m running Open Office under Windows; I haven’t tried it in NeoOffice on my Mac, but I’ll try it and post the result.

By: Wobin

Wobin — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 13:38:39 +0000

Heh! I feel a bit better about MM now =) I’ll swap back and work on my rotation a bit. I was kinda thinking I was doing something terribly wrong =P

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 13:36:41 +0000

Go to http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/toepbNiHJQJiDOUL/details/21/?s=3661&e=4011 and click on “damage by spell”- it looks like you’re right :)

By: Wobin

Wobin — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 13:18:59 +0000

Apologies, I kinda meant “What ratios of damage do your various shots end up compositing as? What rank of total damage do each shot end up totalling?”

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 13:16:14 +0000

On the top right you have a "guides" bar- one of them is for the marks rotation in this patch. That's a good place to get you started.

By: Wobin

Wobin — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:34:32 +0000

What sort of order do your shot damages tend towards?

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:29:32 +0000

Yeah, I’d been saving it for the right post :) Thanks again!

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:29:06 +0000

You’ll get used to it. Auto-shot is a very large percent of your damage, but whether it’s the largest can vary. As you get better with the rotation, this will settle down.

By: Wobin

Wobin — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 02:36:23 +0000

I gave MM a go, and was confused, as Autoshot seemed to be the largest proportion of my damage. Unfortunately, I’m unable to run the spreadsheet as I lack MS Office, to see what I’m supposed to do, so I wasn’t sure if this was intended or not.

The rotation really is a lot different to SV, and I had a lot of issues scrambling for a particular shot on cooldown, cause I could wait half a second for the next priority, depending on which cycle I was on, or go for the one already off cooldown.

It was a little confusing all in all.

By: Pike

Pike — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:44:18 +0000

Woo, glad to see my pic up there!

Myself, I think Marksman and Beast Mastery are more fun than Survival… so Marksman/BM is me! =P

By: Vaijin

Vaijin — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:49:30 +0000

That would definitely be just as helpful. My (admittedly cynical) assumptions are based on people saying “Oooh spreadsheet”, opening it, hitting the grab gear from armory button, and never looking back. That was my first experience with the sheet, and it was a month or two before I realized just how perfectly-perfect the preset comp was, and that to get even slightly reliable data, work was required.

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:33:48 +0000

Armor pen is less DPS per itemization point than crit until you’re swimming in it. Don’t forget, it doesn’t affect chimera shot or arcane shot.

As for when to switch, I believe that “use the spreadsheet” is the best and only advice I can give. Anything else would be making assumptions and thus inaccurate.

By: euripidesoutdps

euripidesoutdps — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:30:38 +0000

I modeled my buffs and replenishment uptime based on real personal raid data to get a 1.7% increase. The only answer I can give to when people should switch is “spreadsheet yourself”. Anything else would be inaccurate.

I’m assuming people know how to input their buffs and replenishment uptime though. Maybe I’ll write up a post about how to get and use that data.

By: Vaijin

Vaijin — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:25:03 +0000

His method, at least as it seemed to me, was more or less “Spreadsheet yourself, if your damage goes up, switch.” The fact that the spreadsheet simulates buffs and a literally PERFECT raid environment skews that data beyond repair. For instance, that 1.7% could be entirely due to a regen-heavy simulated comp. If you are running with a comp that isn’t as mana friendly, MM probably isn’t for you. For people like yourself (focus on 10 man), who follow blogger’s advice blindly (obviously not like yourself), this could be an enormous hit to their DPS. I didn’t think the depth was there, and it’s something this site is usually better about.

By: Kheldul

Kheldul — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:02:11 +0000

I didn’t think he made it seem clear-cut at all. I didn’t realize quartz would show the autoshot timer. That might get me to load it.

And no, I’m probably not switching to MM from SV any time soon. I like having my secondary spec as BM pet-tank a little too much. And I run 10mans where the SV replenishment is too important.

By: Vaijin

Vaijin — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:31:00 +0000

Not one of your better articles, IMO.
Loved the stuttering tip, not many people realize that works, but you should really write an article about WHEN the time to switch is. Once you’ve got an appreciable amount of ArP and a decent mana pool, there is no reason in the world not to be MM in every 25 man you’re in. Most comps are regen-heavy at that point, and the mana-price-tag of that higher DPS just disappears.

It’s not nearly as clear cut as you make it seem, and I think your readers would benefit more from an analyzation of when the time is right.